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	<title>Comments on: What do We Have to Know About a Function in Order to Compute its Definite Integral?</title>
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	<link>http://xorshammer.com/2008/08/21/compute-definite-integral/</link>
	<description>Some things in mathematical logic that I find interesting</description>
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		<title>By: François Dorais</title>
		<link>http://xorshammer.com/2008/08/21/compute-definite-integral/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>François Dorais</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 12:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xorshammer.wordpress.com/?p=84#comment-44</guid>
		<description>See Stephen Simpson&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Subsystems of Second Order Arithmetic&lt;/em&gt;, section IV.2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See Stephen Simpson&#8217;s <em>Subsystems of Second Order Arithmetic</em>, section IV.2.</p>
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		<title>By: mkoconnor</title>
		<link>http://xorshammer.com/2008/08/21/compute-definite-integral/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>mkoconnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xorshammer.wordpress.com/?p=84#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Hmm, that&#039;s interesting.  Do you have a reference for the necessity of a modulus of continuity for computing a definite integral with the regular binary representation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, that&#8217;s interesting.  Do you have a reference for the necessity of a modulus of continuity for computing a definite integral with the regular binary representation?</p>
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		<title>By: François Dorais</title>
		<link>http://xorshammer.com/2008/08/21/compute-definite-integral/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>François Dorais</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 02:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xorshammer.wordpress.com/?p=84#comment-34</guid>
		<description>That is indeed the heart of my question. 

Integrating using with the usual &quot;strict&quot; binary representation actually requires a modulus of continuity. So this result is very surprising from that perspective. I had never seen such a practical example of the non-computable equivalence of these two representations of computable reals.

I always thought that interval arithmetic was just a way to achieve better certainty, at a reasonable price. Now I understand that it is actually more powerful than floating-point arithmetic in a very concrete sense.

I wonder if there is a more practical version of this. More precisely, is there a nice example of an integration problem for which there is a P-time algorithm to approximate it within an interval of length $latex 1/2^n,$ but computing the $latex n$-th bit is NP-hard? (I suspect it&#039;s not too difficult code a lot of things as integrals of trigonometric polynomials, but I don&#039;t recall ever seeing that.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is indeed the heart of my question. </p>
<p>Integrating using with the usual &#8220;strict&#8221; binary representation actually requires a modulus of continuity. So this result is very surprising from that perspective. I had never seen such a practical example of the non-computable equivalence of these two representations of computable reals.</p>
<p>I always thought that interval arithmetic was just a way to achieve better certainty, at a reasonable price. Now I understand that it is actually more powerful than floating-point arithmetic in a very concrete sense.</p>
<p>I wonder if there is a more practical version of this. More precisely, is there a nice example of an integration problem for which there is a P-time algorithm to approximate it within an interval of length <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=1%2F2%5En%2C&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='1/2^n,' title='1/2^n,' class='latex' /> but computing the <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=n&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' />-th bit is NP-hard? (I suspect it&#8217;s not too difficult code a lot of things as integrals of trigonometric polynomials, but I don&#8217;t recall ever seeing that.)</p>
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		<title>By: mkoconnor</title>
		<link>http://xorshammer.com/2008/08/21/compute-definite-integral/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>mkoconnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xorshammer.wordpress.com/?p=84#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it is pretty neat.

I think that the idea is that a computable real number is (among other equivalent characterizations) a computable function which takes an $latex n$ and returns a rational $latex f(n)$ so that $latex (f(1) - 1, f(1) + 1) \supset (f(2) - 1/2, f(2) + 1/2) \supset (f(3) - 1/3, f(3) + 1/3) \supset \cdots$.

Using a representation with digits $latex \{-1,0,1\}$ is equivalent to this, but just using $latex \{0,1\}$, for example, isn&#039;t.  This is because if you&#039;re given a method for computing the binary expansion of a real number $latex x$ in $latex \lbrack 0,1\rbrack$, you could, for example, be able to confidently assert after looking at one bit either that $latex x \geq 1/2$ or that $latex x \leq 1/2$, which is not something that you&#039;re guaranteed to be able to do with a computable real number in $latex \lbrack 0,1\rbrack$. 

Or have I completely misunderstood your objection?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it is pretty neat.</p>
<p>I think that the idea is that a computable real number is (among other equivalent characterizations) a computable function which takes an <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=n&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' /> and returns a rational <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=f%28n%29&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='f(n)' title='f(n)' class='latex' /> so that <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%28f%281%29+-+1%2C+f%281%29+%2B+1%29+%5Csupset+%28f%282%29+-+1%2F2%2C+f%282%29+%2B+1%2F2%29+%5Csupset+%28f%283%29+-+1%2F3%2C+f%283%29+%2B+1%2F3%29+%5Csupset+%5Ccdots&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='(f(1) - 1, f(1) + 1) \supset (f(2) - 1/2, f(2) + 1/2) \supset (f(3) - 1/3, f(3) + 1/3) \supset \cdots' title='(f(1) - 1, f(1) + 1) \supset (f(2) - 1/2, f(2) + 1/2) \supset (f(3) - 1/3, f(3) + 1/3) \supset \cdots' class='latex' />.</p>
<p>Using a representation with digits <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5C%7B-1%2C0%2C1%5C%7D&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='\{-1,0,1\}' title='\{-1,0,1\}' class='latex' /> is equivalent to this, but just using <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5C%7B0%2C1%5C%7D&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='\{0,1\}' title='\{0,1\}' class='latex' />, for example, isn&#8217;t.  This is because if you&#8217;re given a method for computing the binary expansion of a real number <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=x&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='x' title='x' class='latex' /> in <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clbrack+0%2C1%5Crbrack&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='\lbrack 0,1\rbrack' title='\lbrack 0,1\rbrack' class='latex' />, you could, for example, be able to confidently assert after looking at one bit either that <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=x+%5Cgeq+1%2F2&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='x \geq 1/2' title='x \geq 1/2' class='latex' /> or that <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=x+%5Cleq+1%2F2&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='x \leq 1/2' title='x \leq 1/2' class='latex' />, which is not something that you&#8217;re guaranteed to be able to do with a computable real number in <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5Clbrack+0%2C1%5Crbrack&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='\lbrack 0,1\rbrack' title='\lbrack 0,1\rbrack' class='latex' />. </p>
<p>Or have I completely misunderstood your objection?</p>
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		<title>By: François Dorais</title>
		<link>http://xorshammer.com/2008/08/21/compute-definite-integral/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>François Dorais</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://xorshammer.wordpress.com/?p=84#comment-32</guid>
		<description>This is cool! The use of the representation with digits $latex \{-1,0,1\}$ is sneaky, but slightly annoying. Does Alex Simpson discuss this in his paper?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is cool! The use of the representation with digits <img src='http://l.wordpress.com/latex.php?latex=%5C%7B-1%2C0%2C1%5C%7D&#038;bg=ffffff&#038;fg=444444&#038;s=0' alt='\{-1,0,1\}' title='\{-1,0,1\}' class='latex' /> is sneaky, but slightly annoying. Does Alex Simpson discuss this in his paper?</p>
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